Doc Discussions with Dr. Jason Edwards
THIS is the podcast you have been looking for! "Doc Discussions" are just what the title says they are: physicians from a wide range of specialties, talking about relevant, up-to-date medical topics, not to mention tips on habits to help you live your best life. Your host, Jason Edwards, MD, is a board-certified radiation oncologist with a PhD in cellular and integrative physiology at St. Luke's Hospital in St. Louis, Missouri. Dr. Edwards explores not only diseases but also suggests techniques to optimize mental and physical health for a long and good life. Real people. Real advice. Real good. This is Doc Discussions, with Dr. Jason Edwards!
Doc Discussions with Dr. Jason Edwards
Global Health, Parenting, and a Passion for Medicine with Dr. Pearl Philip
Can you truly balance the demands of being a physician with the unpredictable nature of parenting? Join us as we explore this question with Dr. Pearl Philip, an infectious disease specialist, who shares her heartwarming and often humorous experiences of juggling her medical career and motherhood. From the structured world of medicine to the chaos of raising children, Dr. Philip's stories highlight the importance of letting kids find their own solutions and the humbling life lessons learned from their candid observations.
Prepare to be inspired by tales from the frontlines of global health. Discover how witnessing the life-changing effects of antiretroviral therapy on HIV patients worldwide ignited one physician's passion for medicine. Our discussion reveals the pivotal role of treatment in transforming HIV from a death sentence to a manageable condition, and how mentorship shaped a career focused on infectious diseases and obesity. You'll also hear a lighthearted anecdote about an encounter with Bono that adds a touch of levity to the serious work of combating global health crises.
Finally, we draw thought-provoking parallels between the early HIV/AIDS epidemic and the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing the evolution of scientific understanding and the essential role of vaccines. Despite the political divisiveness surrounding COVID-19, there's a silver lining in the collaborative efforts of healthcare workers. In a more personal segment, we traverse the opioid crisis through the lens of Barbara Kingsolver's "Demon Copperhead" and cultural references like John Prine's music, illuminating the far-reaching impacts of this ongoing epidemic. This episode is a testament to the multifaceted lives of medical professionals and the broader societal issues they navigate daily.
Welcome to Doc Discussions. I'm Jason Edwards and this is, in my opinion, the world's best medical podcast, where we have discussions with physicians to discover who they are and what they do, and I'm joined by my good friend, dr Pearl Phillip, an infectious disease doctor. Pearl, how you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm well Good to be here with you, Jason. Thanks for having me on your show.
Speaker 1:You bet, and I know you better than most of our guests because our daughters are friends and we've been on several committees together, yes, yeah, and so I think we can kind of take this in many directions. But I want to first just kind of tell people like like who you are as a person. And you know, one of the things that I think about is I see you as a mother because your daughter and my daughter are good friends and your husband is a physician and my wife is a physician, so, and we both have two kids, so we're kind of at the same place in life. Talk to me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think I thought being a doctor was hard until I had kids, because there are no answers and they're so different. And I can't tell you the number of unread parenting books that I have on my bookshelf, each one prompted by another parental crisis that I've purchased. So that is a challenge. And you know, I think, that I recently read this article that my sister sent to me in the Atlantic and it was talking about how parents need to be more like lighthouses as opposed to helicopters that go in and try to answer and solve and pick up their kids in the moment of crisis. And I can completely communicate where I am in life right now with this quick story.
Speaker 2:So my daughter Aya, she started at a new school and now she has to take the bus for the first time. She's six years old and it's a good local public school and I believe in public schools and I want her to support this public school. So she's taking the bus and two weeks in we have daily conversation How's it going, Do you like the school? And she says, Mom, you have to give the school bad ratings. And I was like, oh man, like this is not what I wanted to hear, because she seems happy and I've talked to her teacher and she's doing, she's adjusting.
Speaker 2:But there's something going on and I'm like I was probing further and she says no one talks to me on the bus, no one talks to me on the bus and and she hates taking the bus because she sits alone and everyone has established connections. So my mind was like oh, I got this. You know, I'm gonna say in my mind I was like I'm gonna give her five questions. She's gonna have candy in her backpack when she's gonna sit. She's gonna bribe the kids with candy and then she's gonna pull out question one, two, three or five. She's sure to start a conversation with. I'm going in my mind with this it's's like, you know, I'm going to make her class president or whatever.
Speaker 2:She's going to be the most popular. And then I don't say anything though, cause I just, like, you know, should we have a neighbor, do you have conversations? And I just kind of let it go. Well, little, you know, I did not enact plan A, b or C and she made a friend on, I think it's this idea of, like you're probably in the same position, I am where we do, you know, think, you know, have more than I think my parents certainly did, and we have, you know, that book on Amazon that you can buy, or that toy or that thing that can solve the answer of the moment.
Speaker 2:But this idea of like, letting kids figure stuff out on their own and having the patience to hear them out and sort of problem solve for them, has been a real challenge. And just to like, allow kids to be who they want to be, who they need to be, let them allow, allow them the space to discover who they are, that's been a challenge for for me, um, who seems to want to be get and solve the problem, because I have the research, I have the knowledge and I got the answers, you know. So that that has been challenging and humbling, and I in many ways, um, and I think you appreciate this because our kids are similar in ages like their um, innocence and unbiased opinion of the world and their ability to just call things as they are has been so revelatory and honest. Everything from about my eating habits you know, like why I need to stuff those fries from McDonald's in my face when I'm also trying to lose weight, like do I need to indulge To?
Speaker 2:oh I don't know? Just observations about family members or whatever. It's really wonderful and it's a real. It's been a real fun journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I, I don't know if it's kind of like the people who go into medicine are people who like, like realize they're consequential and like put forth effort to like do this, or if, like the journey from undergraduate and you know you're, you're a fraction of the people who said they were pre-med who actually get into medical school and then you go to residency, but, like, everything me and you have ever known is like, the work you put in is kind of linear correlation to like an outcome.
Speaker 1:But parenting is not really like that and some things just take time and some things just take patience and some things take lack of action.
Speaker 1:And I think it's something that I see kind of in our generation of parents that the solution has always been hard work and as parents, we want to like do all this work to make things happen. And sometimes you just sit back and, um, you know, yeah, you see, your, your neighbor, you know, um, you know, you know sitting back on the, you know on the on the back patio drinking a bush light and smoking a cigarette and their kid's doing great, and you're like what's going on, you know, and so, uh, and so some things will kind of work themselves out and it's unclear in life, I think, what's good for us and what's bad for us, and sometimes being the lonely kid on the bus can make you sympathize with lonely kids later on, when you're popular, and so it's. But yeah, it's weird how it kind of things kind of work themselves out and and I agree, I think our generation of parents, including me, you know want to do things to make things better.
Speaker 2:I do. Something I'm learning slowly is that if I'm happy, my kids are going to be okay, you know, and so like it's not so much that I need to sacrifice everything, myself included, to be there for every possible need they could possibly have or anticipate, but if I can take care of myself, sleep well, feel. I mean you came and spoke to the residents, the faculty meeting, about the importance of physician health and productivity, you know, if I can be rested, healthy or make good food choices. They're watching everything I do. They're watching how I talk to my husband, how we, how we solve together or shall we say, you know, have heated discussions, and how we communicate, and how I talk about my friends or my neighbors. They're watching everything. So if I can have kind of clear values that I try to stay true to and live a life that I'm proud of in a way that I'm proud of, I think I'm slowly in the hard way, appreciating that that might be all that I really need to do, because those values will also be applied to how I parent.
Speaker 1:I totally agree. I had this patient and I'm going to get this wrong on the details but he worked for some sort of camp that took boys who were having a really tough time or didn't have parents or something like that, but they lived in house at this kind of rural camp and he would try to rehabilitate the boys. That that's. That was the, the, what their business or whatever it was did. And so I thought, well, maybe I could learn something from this guy.
Speaker 1:That's a, that's a good rule. Maybe you'll learn something from somebody you're talking to. So I said what works and he goes well, you don't save them all, but spend a lot of time with them because they watch what you do. They don't necessarily listen to what you say, but they watch what you do and how you act, and that kind of resonated with me. And yeah, I mean there's a ton of books out there and a lot of it's probably good information, but I think most of the stuff we still kind of got to learn just by going through it and doing it and we'll make mistakes, but kind of like doing the best we can.
Speaker 2:And that's a lot.
Speaker 1:And it's a lot, and we'll fail At one of the Mitch album books. It may have been the five people you meet in heaven, I'm not sure it said. Kids are like a crystal glass you will get fingerprints on them, but just don't shatter them. Yeah, and that kind of helps me realize like you're not going to be perfect, Right, but just keep putting in the effort and they'll get there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it helps to have a partners on the same page too.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure, and, and, and I think your- husband, who's a medical oncologist, sean, um, I feel like he compliments you well too. You guys are. You guys are a good combination, and likewise yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, um and so you're an infectious disease doctor. What, what, what piqued your interest in infectious disease during your training to make you kind of go down that road?
Speaker 2:So that's an interesting question. I was on track to be at one point, a diplomat, like I wanted to be like a Madeleine Albright. Really, I mean, I was the closest to being Oprah because you know, I think you know I thought she interviewed like kind of the job you're doing right now, jason, talking to cool people. But then I thought, ok, I am interested in about the problems of the world. My parents are from South India. You know I have an understanding of like our appreciation for health and equities globally, just having visited India with my parents, and so I wanted to be part of that bridge of like the haves and have nots. That was like the idealist in me, sure, um. So I thought, you know, maybe development economics or something like world bank or something like that. But then it was a class in parasitology that kind of piqued my interest, like this little mosquito like decimated the economy of like so many African countries and I was like what is this about?
Speaker 2:And this is so I got interested in global health and so, anyway, long story short, I ended up working in the Office of Global Health and was on track to be I was in this like something called like Emerging Leaders Program, and this is in DC, yeah. So it was like a track to be in management and government. And so I worked at the CDC and that's where I was positioned in the global AIDS program, and so I was doing contracts in HR and I was a country officer during PEPFAR, the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, and so I helped manage communications between headquarters in Atlanta with the countries that I was responsible for. But I always felt like the outside, looking in on these scientists, physician scientists who were making decisions about treatment and protocols for HIV. And I would have the opportunity to visit some of these countries and I could see how this antiretroviral therapy changed lives of millions of people, giving them hope.
Speaker 2:And it sounds, you know, cliche or whatever, but the simple idea that why would you get tested to understand your diagnosis if you had no options for treatment? You wouldn't right, it was just a death sentence. You know like now it's a confirmed death sentence, but once you had a treatment option that was affordable and available, you would get tested and now you can start thinking about having a family and living a life and being healthy. And I saw that firsthand in various contexts and that was like, okay, I want in on this and I want to be at the table. So I went to medical school because of that experience and then that has always been on the back of my mind and so in residency the other interest I had was obesity. Actually, because in a residency clinic I think I did a study where one out of two patients in our residency clinic was obese and I thought why are we not talking about obesity?
Speaker 2:But, at that time, you know the miracle that Ozempic, et cetera is. You know we didn't really have affordable ways and I thought I could, you know, be part of this treatment world of like HIV and global health, or I could bang my head against the wall and help try to get patients to lose weight. Not to say that Ozempic is the answer. I mean, it's much more complicated than that. But so.
Speaker 2:I had this another fork in the road and I really do think that it was mentorship. In residency. I had a really I had a mentor who worked for the CDC and she was the head of epidemiology in our hospital and she really encouraged me to go into ID and I thought, yeah, this is like the path I'm on. But you know, I think an interest of yours is also health and wellness and food and food choices. That's always been another interest of mine, but I forget your question.
Speaker 1:Like how did you get into MID? I mean that's fascinating. So that's what I ended up and how I ended up coming into MID. And you know you kind of say it nonchalant, but I mean, like this is like an awesome experience to go through that. So few people you know, much less physicians, have a chance to kind of be involved in that side of it, and so super fascinating. Did you ever meet Bono at any point during this?
Speaker 2:You know, you know who has is Dr Campbell.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:And he didn't even know who Bono was. That's the hilarious thing, about the story. He's like get out of my way, sir, Right. So he had a friend, you know who? Who? I think it was his. I think bono performed for his special, very well-to-do friend's birthday party and oh my gosh, and bono had to be pointed out to him, but that that's.
Speaker 1:that's a a super fascinating thing to go through. And so do you feel like that experience helped you at all? So you're right out of training and then COVID kind of hit and do you feel like any of that kind of other life like helped you deal with your role? Because you and Dr Campbell and other doctors were infectious diseases here and kind of you know had a big role in our COVID response? To the hospital, or just how was that?
Speaker 2:for you. I mean it's funny. Dr Campbell and I speak about this a lot, you know. For him it was in the early 80s. You know this disease that was affecting, initially you know, the gay population in San Francisco in the first MMWR came out and you know he treated these patients. There was a lot of stigma against them. It was not clear how it was transmitted and there was a lot of fear. I think was the prominent emotion dictating the times during that era. Similarly for us, you know, when COVID first came out, I remember we did a Grand Rounds and I think there was like one article in the New England Journal as opposed to every other article. But we didn't know. I mean people were dying here in the hospital. I remember talking to one patient who said he didn't have time to stay in the hospital. Well, he left in a body bag, unfortunately. I mean so much mortality, you know, because initially we didn't have anything. This was a naive population right.
Speaker 2:And so fear was I don't know if you washed your groceries or your Amazon packages, I mean, that was the predominant emotion. So I think that was sort of very much a um apparel. And then it was, you know, trying to understand. Um anecdotal, um anecdotal evidence right.
Speaker 2:From cause. It was like case reports and what what treatments are working and what transmission protocols we have to follow isolation protocols versus clinging to whatever scientific data that was established with evidence like significant, real, truly scientific facts that we could base our treatment protocols on. So kind of flying by the seat of our pants and talking to others and looking at discussion boards and grabbing onto whatever kind of you know ivermectin, for example. I mean you remember all the crazes that we went through and always trying to stick to what's working for us. You know what is the true evidence here versus anecdotal evidence and what do we find is working in our experience and what can we do. So I think that was an exciting time for me as an ID, attending one year into this whole thing in a new hospital, but it was, I mean, as terrible as it was like I wouldn't have traded it for anything because it really connected me to our hospital.
Speaker 2:I mean everyone from housekeeping to you know, like the head of whatever department pharmacy, respiratory, nursing, etc. Um, it brought people together, I mean in a, in a very incredible way, um, and then, of course, to see the role that the covid vaccine has played has just been phenomenal, and that's how weird. It doesn't peril the HIV crisis, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so now okay, so this is going out. You know the podcast is, and I think you know COVID in general can be kind of a polarizing topic. Yeah, unfortunately, and so the and something times I hear people say this and I don't want this to be like a whole COVID thing, but I want to get kind of your take on this. You know, currently, if you get COVID, you know this and tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm not an expert on this.
Speaker 1:But like this, I think the CDC says that like kind of treat it kind of like the flu currently like the normal flu, kind of like the flu, currently like the normal flu and so and I think some people mistakenly, and maybe a lot of people do, but some people mistakenly think that it's like always been the flu, but it was much. Its mortality rate was much higher initially, for sure, and then over time people have gained natural immunity and immunity through vaccines, right, and also the virus has weakened over time. Is that accurate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it has always remained. It always been and always and still remains more infectious than influenza.
Speaker 1:And so you can get it easier. You can get it easier, yeah.
Speaker 2:And unlike influenza, it doesn't have the component of long COVID that we're seeing, which affects, we think, 10% or so of COVID infections. And we know now, and there's data that just came out, that vaccination cuts that risk of long COVID by half. So unfortunately, as political as this has become, you can't argue with data. Now we have millions of individuals who have been infected, and you know so, we have evidence, whereas two or three years ago we just had hunches. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember initially like we were reliant, because my wife was an ICU doctor at the time and, like you know, you're kind of relying on texts from your friends who are like in Boston or New York or Chicago and that's like that's all you had. But but you had to kind of like trust what they were seeing. I mean, I mean it's it was kind of like the best you had. But over time there's been research articles based off, you know, studies where they compare this treatment versus that one one thing. Uh, there's a website I follow called retraction watch and there there have been a fair amount of covid studies that have issued retractions for, for, for, but it's still a, a, like, I think, less than one percent, but, but I but that%.
Speaker 1:But that's something that some people will say like there's some bias in the science and scientists are humans and they do have biases, and so you will find some of that in the data. But it's important to remember that they were kind of rushing. To get these papers out is one thing. To get these papers out is one thing. Right, and it's still, you know, a small percentage, because a lot of papers, scientific papers, have been published on COVID, right, right and so but yeah, but I hear some people kind of maybe not realize that the magnitude that the virus, how sick it made people you know, was much more earlier on than it is now for kind of a lot of reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I that was. I mean that thing, that that was extraordinary to me, especially the older and they've. We found that that age is a huge predictor of morbidity and mortality. But older patients who would come in I mean they were most of the times they would not make it. Whereas now it's just annoyance to be here in the hospital, kind of like the old flu right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And some people would die of the flu virus you know, in 2015. And some people can get very sick and unfortunately die from the current COVID. I understand people not wanting to kind of lament on it and kind of like move on, but but. I, I do like when you don't know it's. It's pretty scary.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's, it's like, you know, having to go into the hospital.
Speaker 2:It was tough. You know, jason, I think that's I'm looking, thinking back upon it. You know, our concern was not so much the kids, it was exposure to Sean's parents.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Because they were a big part of our lives and I think it was the age and I'm trying to think back to it Like what was really the driving concern there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it was. The kids would get sick and they would give it to the grandparents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we had a lot of that too, you know.
Speaker 2:So that's where Our situation is very similar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay and so okay. So you're a mother, a former diplomat of sorts A wannabe and an infectious disease doctor and a big part of our hospital too, and the other thing is do you read a lot?
Speaker 2:I get the sense that you read a lot in all your spare time, you know. I'm glad you brought that up because I was actually an English major, an undergrad English, molecular bio, and I have always loved English.
Speaker 1:But can I tell you something real quick? Sorry to interrupt. When I applied for my job and they asked me how many languages I spoke, I said almost one. So anyway, ok, that's a joke. Ok, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2:So I'll tell you, something that has been really enjoyable over the last year is that we started a book club, really, and I'll tell you, it's probably the reason I ended up marrying Sean, because when I was working at the CDC, we had a book club there and it was mostly fiction, right, and I, just in our first year of medical school, we were, we both met at Tulane and you know we, after the first exam, everyone goes to drink beer.
Speaker 2:I think that's maybe all medical schools Standard Especially in New Orleans right is not just especially in new orleans right. And so we're talking and I say something like man, you know, I just missed this book club. That was part of it was like such a fun part of my life, and he's like interesting. And so then he went home and he collected like a bunch of short stories and within like two days he sent out a collection of short stories, because you know who can read a novel, but everybody can read a short story. He says we're having our first book club meet at our house, at my house or whatever. And so thus was born a book club in throughout all of medical school.
Speaker 1:So did he? What did he did he? Was it like love at first sight for him and he? This was like the key to your heart. Or was that just him spontaneously?
Speaker 2:You know he was also the lead singer in the moderator band to get it, ha ha, um. So there were a lot of things that, um, that was going, so that's another story for another podcast, but that was definitely a huge thing anyway. So we have continued that with some friends here um over the last year or two and every we rotate selections and it has opened up so many worlds and emotions and forged like connections and friendships and it's been such a fun thing and thanks to Audible, yeah yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 2:You know, it's amazing how much of a book you can get through packing lunches and making breakfast for your kids in the morning and commute. I know walks, you know whatever it is putting groceries away, but it's been a really nice I don't know aspect of my day-to-day life is just right now. I'm reading Demon Copperhead.
Speaker 1:What's that about?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, so depressing. But it's about a kid in foster care. I'm sorry. It's a kid in foster care that is going through the system and you're born to a drug-addicted mother.
Speaker 1:True story or fiction?
Speaker 2:I think it's fiction.
Speaker 2:But it's by Barbara Kingsolver, who also wrote the Poisonwood Bible. I don't know if you've read that book I have not. She's a masterful writer. But the heartache of drug addiction and I don't know if I mean the statistics with the opioid crisis are just mind-boggling and so soul-sucking. But this is. It takes you right there through the eyes of a child growing up in the foster care system to a drug-addicted mom and what's that like. And I've heard it's not a happy book. But everyone who's already completed the book for this month in our book club has said it was an amazing read. And so what's the setting? Where are they at in the book for this month in our book club has said it was an amazing read.
Speaker 1:What's the setting? Where are they at in the book? Do you remember?
Speaker 2:I think they are in like a small town. You mean a city.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or a state.
Speaker 2:There's something I mean. There's a mention of New Jersey.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I think it's like the reason I ask you know I used to work in Kentucky and the opioid crisis is. Okay.
Speaker 1:It kind of really started in Appalachia oh yeah, you know whether it's. West Virginia or Eastern Kentucky or Western Virginia.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And so. But you know, up in Pennsylvania and Ohio too, but the and we actually did a podcast, you know on this previously, but you would see it all the time.
Speaker 1:It was something like one in 10 children in Appalachia live with their grandparents because their parents have passed away from opioid crisis or are in jail, and so we actually don't see a lot of that here in Chesterfield, which is kind of a more affluent part of town, but you would see the real life ramifications and what that does and it's, you know, thank God for grandparents because they were kind of the saviors, you know, with what I saw and but certainly it's a tough go I'm a big fan of John Prine, who's a singer who actually passed away during COVID, but he's got an excellent song that has a video on it called Summer's End, and I don't know if it was shot in Kentucky, but it looks like it and it looks, you know, and I think they don't explicitly say it, but watching the video I think that the song's about the opioid crisis and the loss of parents due to drugs, but it's tough stuff.
Speaker 1:But I think that and honestly, as healthcare providers, it's probably one of the most important conversations we can talk about is the impact of the opiate crisis, Because the mortality I might be wrong on the numbers, but car fatalities are like 40,000 a year-ish, Opioids it's above 100,000 now and so that's a big problem. There was a huge jump.
Speaker 2:Recently there was an article in the New England Journal that a that's a big problem and there's a huge jump recently.
Speaker 2:There's an article in the New England journal that the residents reviewed at a journal club. It's jumped astronomically since the COVID crisis and peaked during the COVID crisis and I think there've been a lot of interventions that have tried to stem the numbers, but I think it came comes down to socioeconomics, you know, which is so hard. How can we change that? What role do we have to play? But I mean, these are deep-seated issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for every complex problem there's a simpler answer. That's wrong. And it's a really, really tough problem and it probably needs to be attacked on multiple levels and, to be honest, it doesn't feel like it's being attacked on any level. Yeah, and so you know.
Speaker 2:I see it with, unfortunately with like infections, you know, soft tissue endocarditis and so Sure. And I trained in North Philly and so I saw it a lot and I'm so paranoid about my kids getting it. I mean, you know your mind. I mean taking it back to the kids and so you can imagine what our dinner conversations are like when I talk about you know this um pus coming out of a joint and aspirating and yeah you know, because this person just shot up and you know sean's like is that really necessary right now?
Speaker 2:yeah I'm like they need to know, so I need to probably tone it down a little, but that's it's.
Speaker 1:It's a scary reality because people losing their hands because of septic emboli multiple heart valves, heart valve, I remember. I did a rotation on cardiothoracic surgery and um, and I remember the surgeon you know telling these young, young guys who are, you know a lot of them worked in the coal mines but um, but a lot of good people work in the coal mines, but but it was um. But he would say your disease isn't your heart valve, it's your addiction you know and it's up to you to fix it.
Speaker 1:you know and it's, but it's, it's a, it's a tough, tough problem. Um, I think, I think with they're making some improvement with the doctors prescribing opiates, but that's kind of, I think, less the issue now and it's the synthetic fentanyl or the synthetic opiates that are coming over from China and coming through the border of Mexico, which is, I think, currently the biggest problem, but it's you know.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to be shy about kind of beating the drum on that, because you know we need more and more people talking about that. And it's a real. It's a real issue, and I know people personally who've been affected by it, and and so it's. It's a very sad thing, but you know it's up to people like me and you you know and making our voices heard and kind of, you know, being a bellwether and saying this is a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it starts with caring right.
Speaker 1:It starts with caring.
Speaker 2:I think, and just taking it back to this book is trying to walk someone's reality right to. Something that we talk about with residents is like can you create empathy? Can empathy be taught? I mean, that's another question I think about too, like can you teach your kids to care? And I don't, I mean I don't know, do you?
Speaker 1:how would you answer that question? Well, I, you know, we empathize with nobody as much as we do our former selves. And so, like you know, you're on the bus and you're all alone and you kind of then your daughter, you know she makes friends and she's not that person anymore, but she looks back and kind of sympathize with her former self, and then when she sees somebody else on the bus and alone, you know, it makes you think, hey, I've been there and that's not fun, and maybe I should just go say hi, you know.
Speaker 1:And so you know, then this is something Lisa Ryan and I talked about. It's like getting the kids out of the house, getting them dealing with people. You know, I feel like video games and stuff like that are, you know, are probably not going to help with the empathy. Nothing wrong with like a kind of a moderate amount of video games, but like human interaction, I think is probably going down overall with the youth and I don't know if that's going to make them more empathetic.
Speaker 2:It used to be that books, when kids read books, you know, I mean I feel like I'm empathizing with the character in this book that I'm reading. Yeah, but yeah, no, I agree with that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I think you and I could talk forever, but I really appreciate you coming on today. Yeah, and so to the listeners please tune in next week for our next episode of Doc Discussions. I want to thank our producer, Kelly Webb Little, and Mr Todd Perkins on sound. Thanks for everything you do. We appreciate you.