Doc Discussions with Dr. Jason Edwards
THIS is the podcast you have been looking for! "Doc Discussions" are just what the title says they are: physicians from a wide range of specialties, talking about relevant, up-to-date medical topics, not to mention tips on habits to help you live your best life. Your host, Jason Edwards, MD, is a board-certified radiation oncologist with a PhD in cellular and integrative physiology at St. Luke's Hospital in St. Louis, Missouri. Dr. Edwards explores not only diseases but also suggests techniques to optimize mental and physical health for a long and good life. Real people. Real advice. Real good. This is Doc Discussions, with Dr. Jason Edwards!
Doc Discussions with Dr. Jason Edwards
Unlocking Secrets of Athlete Care and Recovery
Discover the inspiring journey of Dr. Devon Myers, whose path from collegiate baseball player at Truman State University to a leading sports medicine specialist offers valuable insights into the world of athletic health and recovery. Dr. Myers shares his experiences and lessons learned from growing up in Fenton, playing college baseball, and his transformative role as a patient care tech at MOBAP. We explore his educational adventures from Kirksville to Columbus, Ohio, and back to WashU for his fellowship. Tune in to hear Dr. Myers' perspectives on managing the physical and mental hurdles faced by athletes during recovery, and learn how empathy and understanding play vital roles in effective medical care.
Get ready to explore the complex world of ligament injuries with Dr. Myers as we tackle common challenges like ACL, PCL, and MCL tears, and the infamous Tommy John surgery. Discover the pressures young athletes face due to early sports specialization and year-round play, and why diverse athletic experiences can be crucial for healthy development. Finally, gain insights into injury prevention strategies through progressive overload, and understand how balancing muscle, ligament, and tendon health can mitigate risks. Dr. Myers' passion for sports medicine is palpable as he shares practical advice and compelling stories from his work with athletes striving to return to their peak performance.
Welcome to Doc Discussions. I'm Jason Edwards and this is the world's best medical podcast, in my opinion. I'm here today with Dr Devin Myers, and this is a little bit different than our prior podcast because this is actually the first time I'm meeting him. Devin, welcome to the podcast, Thank you. And so I like to start off with kind of figuring out like who you are and where you're from. So where do you come from?
Speaker 2:So I actually grew up in Fenton, so I'm a local boy.
Speaker 1:Very good.
Speaker 2:Went to Rockwood Summit High School Did my undergrad, so I played baseball there that's kind of my thing and then went to Truman up in Kirksville.
Speaker 1:Did you play baseball at Truman?
Speaker 2:Played baseball there. That's great yeah, did my undergrad there and exercise science and then went to took a year off actually before I kind of decided I wanted to get into medicine a little late in the game at Truman and then actually worked at MOBAP for a year as a patient care tech.
Speaker 1:That's good. That's a great experience. I think doing things like that, and being an athlete too, helps you become a better doctor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the experience at MOBAP was definitely. It was a good appreciation for what nurses and sort of support staff do. So it's a tough job. But after that I went to med school, actually back to Kirksville, to KCOM up there, and then did my residency in Columbus Ohio. So I was up there for five years.
Speaker 2:Very cool city yeah very much like St Louis, kind of clicky in terms of the areas and good sports town, so we enjoyed it there and then I ended up back at WashU for my sports med fellowship. So it was good to be home last year and kind of transitioning into practice this year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very good, and um and so, uh and uh, truman's uh, it's uh, is it one double A or division two, d two, d two and so but I mean that's that's pretty impressive to play NCAA sports Very, you know it's kind of every uh kid out there. You know it's kind of every uh kid out there. You know they're going to get a scholar and it's you know what, the one percent, two percent, it's not a lot of people who end up doing for sure it was.
Speaker 2:Uh, it was a choice I made to go there versus somewhere bigger, because I wanted to play and have that sort of you know that collegiate experience be more involved rather than kind of be in the background, so it worked out well for me for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a lot's a lot about fit too, oh yeah. And and you know the the, I think there's some advantages to being in Kirksville in general, it's there's not a ton of distractions.
Speaker 2:That's true. There's more or less nothing to do.
Speaker 1:And so I mean I'm sure you can get into trouble there, but as as young kids do. But you're medical school and also your craft. So did you get injured ever as a baseball player?
Speaker 2:Nothing that needed surgery, actually, but, yeah, plenty of injuries along the way. I was a catcher, so lots of little knee things, you know, injections here and there for the shoulder and whatnot.
Speaker 1:Did you ever get injured to the extent that you had to sit out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for a couple summers I had actually a low back issue that needed an injection and um, so I ended up kind of burning a summer while I was in college, but nothing during the actual collegiate experience.
Speaker 1:And that's. You know, it's an when you're, when you put your whole, I mean at that level. You put a lot of your life into it, I know, and it's incredibly depressing to put all this work in and then all of a sudden you can't play, and I'm sure that was your experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a big component of what we do. You know, in orthopedics, especially in sports medicine, like you know, you have these athletes who are like training their whole lives for these big-time events, or if it's a pro athlete like this is their livelihood, right. So when they get hurt it's, you know, it's not just a physical problem, it's a mental, psychological thing too, and so there's a big component of playing, you know, not only doctor, but you know sort of therapist too. And, um, you know, if it's, especially if it's a big injury, somebody tears their ACL and they're, you know, everybody knows what that means nowadays. So they know they're done for a year more or less, and so that's pretty defeating.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, you think of I can't remember what year it was, it was probably 08 or something like that or 09, tom Brady, first game of the season gets tackled by the Chiefs player. I think he tore his ACL right and it's like you think well, he's Tom Brady, you know he's got everything. Well, that had to be an incredibly depressing year for somebody like that and I think it lends some credibility if you've been there, you know, as a doctor to say, hey, you know, I don't know exactly what you're going through, but I've been there and I can kind of we can get through this Like I've been down this road before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100 percent. But also the experience of having worked with other you know high-level athletes in the past I think also lend some credibility, because then you kind of know what their thought process should be and kind of who to connect them with to give them the best outcome but also the best sort of you know path forward while they're recovering.
Speaker 1:You know, it's pretty rare as a college athlete, and certainly a professional athlete, to go through your career and not deal with injuries. It's kind of part of the deal. Oh yeah, I mean you do have people like Michael Jordan who just like didn't have a ton of injuries, at least that you knew about. But I mean you know there's, and then there's there's these kind of legendary injuries the Joe Theismann, 85, broken leg. Kevin Ware, 2013.
Speaker 2:That was brutal, brutal, oh God.
Speaker 1:One of the worst ever involved a hockey player from St Louis in 1989, Clint.
Speaker 2:Malarchuk yeah, yeah, get sliced in the neck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and by the grace of God, one of the trainers was right there. Are you familiar with?
Speaker 2:this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he stuck his finger up the neck and he was a Vietnam combat medic as well as a trainer, and put his knee on his collarbone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was wild.
Speaker 1:And it's like you know. So we all have these visions. What are some of the bad injuries that you've seen? You know, in the midst of play.
Speaker 2:That's a good question.
Speaker 1:Or actually, I mean you probably did you go, like during your training did you go to sporting events?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Okay, yeah, especially last year during my fellowship at WashU. We cover a lot of different events.
Speaker 1:You probably saw more actually like as an athlete than in that year.
Speaker 2:I've had a couple of folks with spinal cord type of injuries, neck injuries, neck injuries those are always scary. More football than anything else is obviously what kind of lends itself to that. I'm trying to think of what else I kind of saw last year.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of non-dramatic injuries. Nothing like super vicious.
Speaker 2:Those are the things you have nightmares about. Thank goodness, right they get their neck sliced or something. But yeah, that's part of the things you have nightmares about. Thank goodness they get their neck sliced or something, but um, but yeah, there's it's. That's part of the interesting part, I guess.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's interesting in kind of a weird gruesome way but yeah, it's, you know, it's like it's just you know advocate for it, but everybody finds it fascinating you know there's something unpredictable about it.
Speaker 2:right To kind of be it's not like, especially in orthopedics, like if you're doing you know hip replacements or knee replacements, like you know there's nothing wrong with that, that, but that's you know kind of what you do, right. So that's one thing and that's what you do and you're you kind of know what to expect, what's coming next. But if you're covering a game, or even you know, in our field where we're doing a lot of different stuff, it's not just kind keeps it more interesting.
Speaker 2:There's just a lot more at play, right so you got to know how to manage head injuries. You got to know how to manage neck injuries, so I'm not a spine guy, but I know how to spine board and moments, um, you know you need a cool head, yeah, for sure. If something's and and you know the issue is, a lot of times there's parents that get involved and they're down on the field, they're crying or yelling or whatever, and so it definitely makes it a little bit, uh, it's a stressful moment for sure.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure you know, through your training and through mentors and stuff like that, and probably even just through your own personal experiences, you kind of learn how to take control of the situation. For sure To get people to calm down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely part of the training. So yeah. I had some really good mentors at WashU.
Speaker 1:The. There's injuries that are like overuse injuries too, like stress, fractures and things like that. Do you deal with that kind of stuff?
Speaker 2:as well. Yeah, to a certain extent, um, kind of depends on on what it is. Obviously, yeah, um, you know some of those folks. You know we're, we're oftentimes the first contact point for a lot of those people. So, like you know the um cross country runner who ends up with, you know a tibial stress fracture or you know a femoral stress fracture, stuff like that yeah, it's more commonly lower extremity, obviously, since you're, you know, more repetitively bearing weight through those areas.
Speaker 2:It can happen in the feet, fifth metatarsal, other places as well. So you know we are often the first point of contact because you know they have musculoskeletal pain. Yeah, identifying them can be challenging, though Sometimes you, you know you get x-rays and they can be fairly normal and you have to have enough suspicion to get an MRI. And that's where I think being a good doctor comes in, cause you know you're kind of looking at the patient as a whole, right, like if it's a young female, maybe they're have some sort of the female athlete try going on or somebody who's postmenopausal and you know it's oftentimes more in females that we see it or someone who's you know even guys, who are like training for ultra marathons, or crazy stuff like that.
Speaker 1:I've had five stress fractures, and so I ran cross country at Mizzou.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And four of them were in my tibia and one in my femur and it's you know, after a while you're like well, it's right between the joint and like you know, right on the bone and you kind of have a pretty good idea. But it did take them a little. They did like a now this was over 20 years ago, so they did like a nuclear medicine bone scan, yeah, like a true bone scan, yeah, and you can still do those.
Speaker 2:So MRI will show it a little bit quicker, a lot of times.
Speaker 1:Is that right yeah?
Speaker 2:You know they're more sensitive now. But yeah, then you got to look at, you know, from a rheumatologic standpoint or like not even that, but like somebody who can give them vitamin D or calcium or high doses of those things, things like that Because it could be for that.
Speaker 1:We don't want to talk about stress fractures the whole time, but for that specific injury it could be like an issue with the person, correct?
Speaker 2:For me it was a volume issue.
Speaker 1:I was like running like over 100 miles a week, and so that'll kind of do it.
Speaker 2:I don't think I've run 100 miles in the last six months.
Speaker 1:Well, I promise you've ran more than me in the last six months, but yeah. So trying to figure out like what the underlying cause is, whether it's internal or external locus of control.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And then and the do you deal with ligament injuries at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one of my primary sort of focuses.
Speaker 1:Is that? Right as a sports guy, so um so what kind of what kind of things is it with that? It's like ACL yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, ligament wise, acl is obviously a big one Everybody thinks about. But um, you know, in the knee there's ACL, pcl, mcl, obviously the lateral collateral as well. You know, there's ligaments everywhere else too, in the ankle.
Speaker 1:What about the elbow?
Speaker 2:Not so much the Tommy John, tommy John ligament, the UCL, yeah, you know some kind of complex lateral elbow instability with usually more associated fractures, yeah. And then you know the tendons are kind of the other half of our equation, so, like the Achilles repairs and that's a that's a tough one to come back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, it sucks. Yeah, and the rotator cuff tears those sorts of things. Yeah, not so much from a sports perspective. Those are usually more degenerative or traumatic and older folks, but it's also sort of falls under the same ballpark as something a sports guy does in terms of ligaments and tendons being one of our main kind of focuses.
Speaker 1:And so, and there's, you know everybody, the Tommy John. It's a real popular subject matter because some pitchers you know have gotten the surgery and came back and been great.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And some people even argue like it's like better to get the surgery.
Speaker 2:Like you've heard this right, yeah, yeah yeah, it's definitely a sort of a wise tale.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are some people who have had the surgery and they throw harder. But you know, why is that? I mean, it could be that you know their ligaments have been stretched out for years from the sort of overuse of throwing and you get a fresh new ligament in there that heals nicely. You get a good surgery and now you have a tighter ligament there and so, um, you throw harder. It could be the months and months of rehab where you're focused specifically on your core and your chain and your shoulder and all that other stuff that you weren't doing before when you were just consistently throwing a baseball. So it's hard to pinpoint exactly why that is. I would tell you that that's not the majority of people. The majority of people do get back to play, but there are there. There is definitely a percentage of folks who don't I don't have a number in front of me but a percentage of folks who don't ever get back to the same level they were at. Yeah, and it's probably higher than most people would expect.
Speaker 1:What are people having the surgery at a younger age than they did previously?
Speaker 2:That is true for sure.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2:I think a lot of it has to do with the year-round sports craze and the sports kind of specialization. It seems to be cooling off a little bit. When I was going through playing in high school and college, it was like everybody was saying you've got to pick a sport, you've got to pick a sport, you've got to play all year round. And so I pretty much I mean for when I was like 10 or 11 on, I pretty much played baseball all year round. Yeah, and looking back on it, that was a horrible decision. I probably would have had fun playing football or hockey or any other sport, right and um. But that was you kind of develop one set of muscles, one set of movement patterns, whereas you're not, you know, doing other sports. Maybe you're not throwing a ball, maybe you're doing more running or kicking or you know whatever that is and you kind of strengthen muscles that you're not otherwise using.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to get in hot water here. That's a part of it. I'm going to get in hot water on this one because almost most of the people I talk to about this tell me I'm wrong. But I'm going to stick with my position.
Speaker 1:The pushing kids. Now we're getting off track, but that's OK. Pushing kids in a sport too hard, I think too early, is a bad idea. And I'll hear people say well, you don't know, jason, this is St Louis. If they're not, you know, at nine years old doing this, they'll never make the varsity team.
Speaker 1:And like, obviously I was a Division I athlete and I've actually talked to, you know, other college athletes about this and they, they, they agree with me yeah, they say yeah, and I I could kind of tell the way you're framing it and and so in a high skill sport like golf or baseball, you probably need to start earlier to develop that skill. Golf or baseball, you probably need to start earlier to develop that skill. Um, and things um like like football, which certainly has some skill to it but it's like less of a skill Um. You know, I've seen people um play their first year of college or of high school football as a senior and be all state I mean you and so I think it's more important to have kind of a to be a good athlete, to train but to do many things. And I think it's more important to have kind of a to be a good athlete, to train but to do many things, and I think that's better for you psychologically.
Speaker 2:Oh, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And a hundred percent selling out, you know, in fourth grade for one sport where you're not going pro like it's not happening.
Speaker 2:It's not a good idea. I mean like I said, I kind of did that and I regret it now yeah.
Speaker 2:Like at the time it seemed like the best choice. But I mean, from an injury standpoint luckily I never had anything terrible happen but yeah, I think it would have been better for my overall development physically, yeah. And I just think that from a psychological standpoint nowadays, like even when I was playing, like there was two good travel teams in St Louis and that's what it was yeah, If you didn't play on one of them, you played on you know some other sort of like semi-competitive travel team, but you maybe travel for a couple of weeks, a couple of weekends per summer, kind of.
Speaker 1:Thing.
Speaker 2:It was pretty relaxed right.
Speaker 1:It's not. That's not how it is anymore.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like there's like 10 different travel teams. They all have like eight. You through 18, you you're shelling out thousands of dollars a month. You know to these organizations and there's nothing wrong with them I mean, their intentions are good, I think you know, to help kids learn but it gets to be this like behemoth that they can't control.
Speaker 1:And it kind of takes over the whole family and and and like to the people. If you're doing that out there, I don't know what's right. I'm just saying but I, but I have spent a lot of time in sports and most of the people I know who have been collegiate sports and I mean I've trained with Olympians um, you know, high level guys, um, most of them as adults are not super pro that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't think there's anything wrong with you know, if you're out there trying to, you know, help your kid, do what they want to do and they enjoy it.
Speaker 1:And if the kid loves it, yeah, then that's great. I mean a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:And and you know you got to do what you enjoy doing, right, but um, I mean, I can tell you like when I got to my last couple of years of college, I was pretty burnt out and I kind of I feel bad about that now, cause I wish I could go back and play, yeah, but, and it was. You know you look back and like, man, that was that should have been the time of my life, but I was kind of ready to be done.
Speaker 1:So so I mean you know you play baseball, which is kind of a glory sport. Track is not a glory sport. I mean you know there's not like. You know everybody's like, oh, you're on the track. No, it doesn't happen. Yeah, would know who they are, who are on the basketball team and the football team, who were. And I mean you know you get, you know arena full of people cheering their name. Everybody on campus knows them that I remember them were the same exact thing. You know, junior year. They're like I don't like this anymore. This has turned into something that like it's not fun, it's all work and I'm not saying like poor me, but it's being a college athlete. It's a tough one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a grind, you know you're trying to do school and that's, you know, hard enough for most people, and then you're doing and again it's not like a feel bad for me kind of thing, but it's it's definitely like a lot of people don't realize how, how challenging it is, Even at the D2 level.
Speaker 1:Cause they're um. When I was there, they had this slogan. It was like we chose D2. Like, like there's levels to it, but there can be some great.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, individual athletes and teams. Some great baseball players in the conference I was in that ended up playing pro and so, all joking aside, did you ever see the Appalachian State versus Michigan?
Speaker 1:When Michigan was ranked number one, Appalachian State was like either the D2 or 1AA national champion of football.
Speaker 2:They played each other the first game of the season, the Appalachian state beat them, the number one team in the country.
Speaker 1:So yeah, they're good. Yeah, the yeah, but yeah. So I mean you know you can get some good athletes at all levels for sure. Um and so, um. So do you see? Um?
Speaker 2:no-transcript are getting a little older, um, typically you know 50s to 80 kind of kind of range, um, but up to whatever um, but then the mostly you know the true sports injuries are going to be in younger folks who are doing those kinds of activities. So the ACL tears, the you know true like meniscus tears, um, shoulder dislocations, ac, joint sprains, those kinds of things are going to be usually in in in true athletes that are younger. Yeah, I say true athletes. That's probably not fair but um, even your weekend warriors or people who are out kind of doing you know stuff on the weekend, so um, even like meniscus tears though, for example, like we see meniscus tears in the 20 year old football player, but we also see meniscus tears in, you know, people in their fifties and sixties who have been grinding on their knee for a while and maybe have a twisting pivoting injury and now they have a meniscus tear.
Speaker 2:So how you treat them in some sometimes a little bit different, but um, you know, those are kind of. Those are one of the ones where I kind of clump into. Like everyone can get it, but there are injuries typically more in younger folks, like the shoulder dislocations and AC joint sprains and things like that that are more traumatic. Yeah, and I see some fractures and stuff too that are kind of of all ages. But yeah, it's a mixed bucket for sure.
Speaker 1:All right. So everybody knows like the newest, hottest craze is pickleball and you know, you know and I've heard from actually, dr Ramis was talking to me about it saying you know, this is a new area where there's a ton of injuries, but it can get to a point where it's like outside of the realm of normal. Can you talk to me about just kind of differentiating, like when people need to see you versus normal aches and pains, and then pickleball specifically?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the pickleball craze is definitely real. We see all kinds of pickleball injuries nowadays and it varies from, like your, your tennis elbow, which we see oftentimes in any kind of racket sport, versus, like you know, trips and falls, where we get hand fractures and wrist fractures and gosh, even like hip fractures, which is not, not ideal for someone who's out playing pickleball. But you know, even then to knee injuries where you have exacerbation of knee arthritis or meniscus tears, things of that sort. So the variety of the spectrum is huge. Just because of the way that you're playing, you're involving a lot of different things.
Speaker 2:Um, in terms of you know when to come see somebody, um, I think anytime, you know, anytime you're, you're noticing uh, increased pain without, uh, significant swelling, without, you know, swelling inside the joint or in the soft tissues where you can still weight bear. Um, where things are managed with ice and anti-inflammatories, then that's kind of the place to start. So, um, you know using the ice consistently for a couple of days, taking, you know, reasonable doses of anti-inflammatories, obviously within, you know, the normal standards, um, six to 800 milligrams every, you know, three times a day. That's that kind of thing. Um, I see a lot of people who are like oh, I took ibuprofen, but they took like 400 milligrams once a day, which is not going to really do much.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I do the three. I do 600, three pills three times a day for three days. Usually it takes care of me, yes exactly.
Speaker 2:So I'm two 30. So I mean, if you do yeah, exactly, if you do a little run of that and noticing things like swelling, you felt a pop in your knee or your shoulder or something along those lines, you can't move your joint, you have um inability to weight bear, those are all reasons to come see somebody much sooner, obviously. But, um, you know, it's one of those things that's kind of intuitive to some degree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, thankfully, yeah, and and for sure. There's going to be some aches and pains as you adapt. I mean that comes with it. But I, you know, I always tell my patients with cancer that you know, if you're having pain for more than two weeks and it seems like it's only getting worse, you know, that's the time For sure, yeah, and persistence is definitely a sign.
Speaker 2:So, and in people who are playing pickleball like, like you said, a lot of people are picking it up now who haven't been super active, and that's great. We want you to be active and so ultimately it's a good thing. But you have to understand, like when you're out there running back and forth, making quick, pivoting, cutting movements using a repetitive racket swing, that you haven't done in maybe 10 or 20 years, that it's probably going to be sore and that can turn into tendonitis, it can turn into exacerbation of preexisting arthritis or, you know, maybe you had a meniscus tear already that was asymptomatic, that you've now aggravated. So those are kind of the tricky things where maybe you had a little bit of knee pain and you have arthritis and it just wasn't flared up and now you have full blown arthritis and some people are confused about that.
Speaker 1:Do you um, um, do you lift weights? So the you know you're familiar with the concept of progressive overload, right Like, over time, you slowly increase the volume or the weight or both Of course.
Speaker 1:And you know I've talked about this before on the podcast but, like your muscles will probably adapt faster than anything, and the older you are, the slower they adapt. Your bone density can improve significantly with weight training and just activity in general, but the ligaments and tendons, although they can get stronger, do so much slower, and so if you increase your physical activity and your muscles are adapting rapidly, those ligaments and tendons are not.
Speaker 2:They can adapt but it's slow and they kind of adapt, not so much in the way that muscles do in terms of strengthening or hypertrophying, but they kind of change their structure their orientation. They reorganize the collagen right Exactly to kind of modify the way you're treating it. Essentially, the issue is that the muscles hypertrophy quicker and they tend to kind of tighten up as you're using them more. And so if you get more stiffness and tightness through the muscles.
Speaker 2:you're pulling on those ligamentous, you know, tendinous insertions more and that's when you start to develop tendonitis. So Achilles, you know tennis, elbow, shoulder, those are the things that you know, and then you got to work with physical therapy and things like that to really stretch the muscles out so that the tendons can have a little bit of relief.
Speaker 1:And so the best way to kind of mitigate your risk of injury would be to kind of slowly increase your volume over time. If you're lifting for sure, taking the deload week where you kind of go down every five or six weeks, yeah, of course it's kind of a good idea.
Speaker 2:Similar process.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where you get out and you play, you know, do some practice, then go, you know, to the next day when you maybe play one game of pickleball and then you go play two days, two games of pickleball the following day. So rather than like going out and playing for three hours straight, you know where you're just cutting and pivoting and diving, swinging. I mean, you're going to pay for that.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to pay for that. So, yeah, exactly. Well, it seems like a really cool, um cool practice that you've created here, and I think you know, being an athlete, I'm sure you love working with athletes and then you know, seeing them down the road do well too is very gratifying. Yeah Well, devin, I want you to know. We're very happy to have you here, and thanks for coming on the podcast today.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for your time, you bet.