Doc Discussions with Dr. Jason Edwards
THIS is the podcast you have been looking for! "Doc Discussions" are just what the title says they are: physicians from a wide range of specialties, talking about relevant, up-to-date medical topics, not to mention tips on habits to help you live your best life. Your host, Jason Edwards, MD, is a board-certified radiation oncologist with a PhD in cellular and integrative physiology at St. Luke's Hospital in St. Louis, Missouri. Dr. Edwards explores not only diseases but also suggests techniques to optimize mental and physical health for a long and good life. Real people. Real advice. Real good. This is Doc Discussions, with Dr. Jason Edwards!
Doc Discussions with Dr. Jason Edwards
Beyond Profit Margins: How Donor Dollars Transform Patient Care
Ever wondered how hospitals afford those multi-million dollar machines that save lives? The answer might surprise you.
Dan McCormack, Vice President and Executive Director of Development for St. Luke's Hospital, pulls back the curtain on healthcare philanthropy in this eye-opening conversation. What emerges is a fascinating look at how donor dollars become the lifeblood of modern healthcare innovation when insurance reimbursements fall woefully short.
While universities like Harvard sit atop $50 billion endowments, your local hospital likely operates on razor-thin margins—sometimes just 1-2% above breaking even, if not in the negative. Medicare and Medicaid typically reimburse only 60-90 cents on the dollar for services rendered. This financial reality creates an impossible situation: how does a hospital acquire a $4 million linear accelerator for cancer treatment when barely staying afloat?
The answer lies in the profound connection between grateful patients and the institutions that heal them. Unlike university donations driven by alumni pride or cultural giving motivated by community enrichment, healthcare philanthropy taps into something more personal—the deep gratitude that comes from having your life saved or improved. As McCormack eloquently puts it, "What I'm actually doing is giving them an opportunity to feel good" by allowing donors to transform their hard-earned money into healing for others.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is its honest exploration of both sides of the philanthropy equation. We hear about the delicate art of fundraising without making relationships feel transactional, while also understanding why even small donations make meaningful differences in healthcare delivery. From the psychology of giving to the uncertain future of nonprofit tax status for hospitals, this discussion offers rare insights into how philanthropy shapes the healthcare we all depend on.
Ready to make an impact? Visit the St. Luke's website and click "I Want To" in the upper right corner to discover how your contribution—whether $25 or $25,000—can transform patient care in your community.
Hello, welcome to Doc Discussions. I'm Jason Edwards and I'm here today with Dan McCormick. Dan, how are you doing today, sir? I'm very good, how are you Very good? And so you help lead our foundation, or the philanthropy part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we don't have a foundation here, so it's just the development office.
Speaker 1:The Office of Development. Okay, so what's your technical title?
Speaker 2:Vice President and Executive Director of Development for St Luke's Hospital.
Speaker 1:Very good, very good. So, and a lot of that, a lot of development, is the philanthropy side of St Luke's right.
Speaker 2:That's it, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you get into something like this? I don't remember this being a major in high school.
Speaker 2:Actually there are majors out there now Really, and I think, like a lot of it, I got into it kind of backwards or sideways and there aren of need for interacting with people and understanding what people want to do with their money, with their gifts, whatever. So, yeah, from the day I got out of law school pretty much the day I got out of law school I was always working in a nonprofit organization, first with hospitals, then with the university, then back into healthcare again, but initially with the healthcare part of things. I wasn't doing fundraising, I was doing administrative work and then legal work for hospitals. And then had an opportunity to jump from healthcare into higher ed when a position opened up on my alma mater.
Speaker 1:Now, where did you go to school at? This was.
Speaker 2:Rice University in Houston.
Speaker 1:Oh right, sure Great college.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was working in the Texas Medical Center, first at Methodist Hospital and then at Texas Heart Institute. And while I was at Texas Heart, literally I was just one Sunday morning just flipping through the newspaper looking at one ads, just sort of seeing what's out there. That was back when there were one ads in newspapers and I'm that old and there was a position in there to work. Physically it was in the development office at Rice, but functionally it worked for the president of the university and doing a lot of his speeches and correspondence and prep work and things like that. And so I applied for that job and I'd done a whole lot of staff work for CEOs up until that point in time and so I kind of knew the mindset and so I was able to get into Rice.
Speaker 2:I got that job and within six months I was talking with the VP of development and said I've got bandwidth to do more. And so I ended up taking on responsibility for all development office communications, not just the president's office but all of them, and that kind of got me into fundraising. How long did you do that at Rice? I did that for 96 to early 2000. So almost four years.
Speaker 1:And I have to imagine I mean Rice's endowment has to be over a billion dollars now, oh, I think it's closer, but it's multi-billion right, it's multi-billion now.
Speaker 2:At that point in time, depending on who you talk to, rice because its student population was still pretty small. It's gotten progressively bigger since then. But Rice at that point in time may have had the largest endowment per student. If you took the total endowment divided by number of students, rice may have had the largest endowment per student. If it wasn't, it was top three or four.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Texas is kind of fertile ground with all the oil money there and everything else that SMU and the TCU they do well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do well, and the fact is and you've got multiple institutions like you mentioned University of Texas, texas A&M, smu, rice Baylor all have very, very generous donors that all seem to pull from completely different pots of money.
Speaker 1:There's that much to go around. Yeah, yeah, I think people would be very shocked at the percentage of ones. If you have a high net worth individual, the overall percentage they actually end up donating throughout their life. I mean many people will donate more than 50% of every dollar they ever earned. Yeah, that's I would assume, not uncommon?
Speaker 2:I think it's not. I mean, and you see more and more people. I think it's not. I mean, you know, and you see more and more people. I mean you've got, essentially, well, the Buffetts and the Gates of the world that are saying I'm not giving anything to my kids or I'm giving a very small portion. Now, of course, what Bill Gates I mean I saw the arithmetic that what Bill Gates says I'm only going to give like 1% to each of my kids, I'm like, well, you've made them multimillionaires even just that 1%?
Speaker 2:Oh sure, but Like well, you've made them multimillionaires. Even just that 1%, oh sure. But I think Buffett said I'm not giving them anything, they're doing fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually think his children work for his foundation.
Speaker 2:I think that's right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so the generosity out there is really amazing. And so then you started getting into the hospitals working for the Texas Medical Center. For those who don't know, texas Medical Center is like 40 or 50 hospitals, all right in one area not far from Rice.
Speaker 2:No, it's actually literally across the street, across Main Street, from Rice.
Speaker 2:And so at that point in time there weren't. I mean it was big, but it wasn't the metropolis that it is right now. I mean people that aren't familiar with the Texas Medical Center and they fly into Houston. When they fly over it they think they're flying over downtown Houston. You know, downtown Houston has the even larger buildings just to the north a little bit, but you know every one of these. I mean whether it's Methodist or there's a St Luke's there, md Anderson, baylor, baylor, you know Baylor College of Medicine, memorial Hermann, all these hospitals. Then you've got all these little subspecialty hospitals, you've got rehab hospitals, you've got the Texas Heart Institute, You've got all these other things around there. It's a medical megalopolis these days.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it supports this whole industry of these peripheral hotels and stuff like that because people are coming in from all over the world to the Texas Medical Center for Care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I happened to interview at MD Anderson many years back and amazing experience. I mean just seeing what it was, you know there's only one place in the world like that.
Speaker 2:No, exactly, and you know when I was there you know 40 years ago that it was MD Anderson was big and it had a great reputation, but it exploded. I mean, it just went off the map, off the charts in terms of what its capacity is, its catchment from around the world of people coming to MD Anderson for one-of-a-kind, state-of-the-art care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah for sure, and so I'm going to switch gears here. So, on a day-to-day operation, what kind of things are you doing?
Speaker 2:I mean it varies, I mean. So, first of all, I mean most of what we're doing and most of what we should be doing is just relationship building, and that takes a variety of different forms. And so a lot of what we're doing is sort of mapping out and executing an annual calendar that says, okay, if it's the whatever, this is the second or third Wednesday in September. This is what we're doing. Okay, this is where we are in terms of our calendar of mailings, our calendar of events and all these things. All these mailings, all these events are designed for us to just maintain some type of contact flow with donors and with people that aren't donors.
Speaker 2:So we'll look out over the course of the year and say, in any given you know month or span of time, st Luke's is going to have X number of inpatients, y number of emergency room visits or outpatient visits to an ambulatory surgery center or someplace outside, z number of physician office visits.
Speaker 2:And we legally have access to all that information for fundraising purposes. We can't necessarily know what a patient-specific diagnosis is or the type of treatment they got, but we're allowed to know that they were patients of the hospitals, patients of our physicians, and then it's up to us to sort of say what are we going to do with that information? And so we'll do some degree of data segmentation and then start this sort of method or route of contacting these individuals, seeing if they have any interest whatsoever in supporting the hospital. And then you know what happens is is that when they say yes the first time, okay, then it's. What happens is is that when they say yes the first time, okay, then it's up to us to make sure that they say yes again. And so now you've got another calendar of activities that are saying, once a person says okay, yeah, I had great care, dr Edwards saved my life. Here's a hundred dollars. Um, what are we doing then to see what we can do to trigger that generosity and encourage that person to make a gift in the future?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's, there's um. Now I think people can look at this two ways. You know, somebody could look at that critically and say, hey, people are coming to the hospital, um, and, like you know, you're badgering them for money. It's. It's a pretty, I think a pretty gentle ask, yeah, and, to be honest, people out there, there are plenty of people who are looking to find a place to put their hard-earned dollars, yeah, and they're happy that you've connected with them so they can actually, you know, you've kind of solved a problem for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that you know I try really hard and sometimes you've got to be very careful about when you get into the business of philanthropy and it's very easy to sort of put on this almost mercenary mindset that says, you know, if I don't raise this money, I'm not successful at my job. And I've got you know, and you get the sort of sales or transactional mentality to it and I've always sort of been much more inclined to think, to just keep reminding myself that what we're asking these people for is a gift. You know, and if you're badgering for them for it, if you're trying to, you know, make them feel guilty or compel them to give to you, it's not a gift. Sure, you know we want to trigger I mean realistically we're triggering, or we hope we're triggering some type of personal emotional response wired around gratitude. In our case. Now, healthcare philanthropy is slightly different from higher ed fundraising in that way in that, although most higher ed donors have some degree of alumni connection degree of alumni connection I mean, when you're talking about something like Rice University of Texas you've got these huge institutional donors and foundations, houston Endowment organizations like that, the Brown Foundation in Houston that, yeah, there are some alumni that are involved in those things, but mostly that's just the estates of multimillionaires or billionaires that have set this money aside to give to community organizations and there's not a whole lot of gratitude involved. But most of the personal connections that are happening at universities are with alumni who feel a sense of gratitude for the education they received or the relationships that they built with the university. In healthcare you're triggering that same sense of gratitude.
Speaker 2:It was the care that I received. We're hoping that we're talking to patients, past patients, that feel better now than they did when they first accessed our care and want to express some degree of thanks, either for the immediate care that they received either as a cancer patient that got treated and they're successfully in remission right now or just because they're thankful because even if they didn't receive care, they live in the neighborhood and they know that if there's an emergency, that there's a really good hospital that they can go to and be taken care of. If I were fundraising and I've never done this before, but if I were fundraising for a cultural organization, it's a completely different Then you're getting more of that community response. Then it's the people that say I really want St Louis to have a top symphony or a great opera or this wonderful botanical gardens or the zoo and you're triggering that kind of community benefit response. But here we're talking almost entirely out of gratitude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this kind of goes into what do you think the main psychological points of giving are. You know, what do you think when you think of I'm sure you've looked into this, you're a smart guy, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I probably haven't looked into it as much as I should, because it does fascinate me a little bit.
Speaker 1:But what have you noticed? You know, not from books, but from on the street.
Speaker 2:Well, no, what I've noticed is that a lot of times donors are grateful to us. When they make those. I mean, we're, of course, grateful to them. They've given us a gift. It's got one or two commas. Maybe it doesn't have any commas in it, maybe it's only it's $50 or $25. But when you have those conversations with those donors, they view that gift as just an extension of their gratitude and it feels good. It's the way that you know. I would liken it to the way that we feel at Christmas or birthdays or whatever, when we give gifts to other people, and it's sort of like well, yeah, it's my daughter's birthday, I kind of have to give her a gift, all right, but I feel good doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think too, when people donate, it gives them a sense of purpose too. It does it says, I'm taking my hard-earned work, which obviously the dollars are a representation of that, and I'm using it to try to make the world a better place.
Speaker 2:I think that's it, and there's a little bit of paying it forward too. I mean that you will find patients that will say to you I want to make sure that somebody else who comes along the road that has the same condition that I have, the same diagnosis that I have, can get the same treatment that I have, even if they don't have the means that I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for sure, and so, and you know kind of what better place for it to go than something that your friends and neighbors could also benefit from? Exactly, we do spend millions of dollars a year here at St Luke's on charity care. Yeah, millions of dollars a year here at St Luke's on charity care, and it's important for people to know that hospitals oftentimes, most of the times, have a single digit operating margin, if not negative.
Speaker 1:So, plenty of hospitals. I think in 2024, it was about a third of hospitals lost money. But they're willing to do that because they feel that it's an obligation to the community to do that and they're willing to spend money on things that the community needs, even if they lose money.
Speaker 2:I think that's right. I think the vast majority of hospitals in the United States are nonprofit organizations. If you're in a nonprofit organization, you've only got three ways of getting money. You can earn it through the services you provide or the investments you make. You can borrow it from banks or the bond market, or you can ask for it. Yeah, and the tax code is set up to make asking for it a positive stream of revenue for nonprofit organizations. I mean, that's why the tax code continues to allow individuals to deduct, you know, charitable contributions and I think that you know, and as you sort of referenced, that payment streams aren't getting any more expansive.
Speaker 2:The days of Medicare or the government saying, what did it cost?
Speaker 2:Oh, here, we'll pay you what it costs. They're not paying you what it costs, they're paying you what they think it's worth. And it's designed to have very, very tight margins, which means that hospitals have to cost shift. The government's only going to pay us 90 cents on the dollar, maybe less than that, 60 cents on the dollar, which means we've got to charge $1.40 on the dollar for the private side and at the end of the day, you're kind of working yourself to a status quo. You're kind of like just sort of saying okay, if we can break even or just get one or two percentage points above break even, that's great, except for the fact that it doesn't give you any opportunity to make these sort of future investments. So new, new building, new building, a new building, or you know, in what you do, technology is changing so dramatically. You know, and if you, I mean I don't know what what equipment and radiation oncology was like 30 years ago, but I bet it's a whole lot more effective now and it also costs a lot more.
Speaker 1:For sure, yeah, so we use linear accelerators. They cost, you know, just the machine alone is, you know, $2 to $4 million plus the maintenance of the room. Right? So if anybody's listening out there and, you know, wants to find a place to put their hard-earned dollars, you know we're welcome.
Speaker 2:And we'll be happy to name a room after you. But to your point then. I mean, if the hospital is sitting there scraping by on these really tiny margins, then you've either got to wait a really, really long time before you can muster enough capital to go out and buy yourself a new linear accelerator, you've got to pull it off your balance sheet, which is not necessarily a good idea, because essentially, what you're doing right then is, if you're taking it out of your savings account, you're depriving yourself or your investment account especially.
Speaker 2:Right now you could have money on your balance sheet that's earning you 8%, 10%, more percent in the investment market. Well, now I'm not going to have that anymore, because I've got to spend the cash to buy this equipment and take money out of my savings to do it.
Speaker 2:Or you come to the development office and you say can we ask people for financial support to get us this new piece of equipment? And the answer to that is almost always going to be yeah. I mean, it's going to take work to do it, but we can do it.
Speaker 1:And that's because the operating margins are so narrow 1%, 2%, negative 1%, 2%. That makes philanthropy, especially at a hospital, invaluable. I mean, these universities that have billion dollars in the bank that's putting off 8% per year keep investing in your colleges. But it's your neighborhood hospital, your local hospital is really important and I think it's a good place to park some dollars.
Speaker 2:that would probably give you the biggest bang for your buck and making a difference in people's lives when they see, I mean, even though you know, by the time they get their, their EOB and have to make their payment or whatever, whatever their copay or their deductibles are, they're still when they see the sort of the root bill for hospital services and they're like that cost me that much. And then then they look, okay, good, I had, I had insurance through my employer, whatever. But they're still, I think, overwhelmed by the magnitude of the money that's in healthcare. Because we have these conversations with donors and prospects all the time that they can't believe that any organization that charges that much for that procedure could possibly only have a 1% or 2% or even a negative margin. They're like, how is that possible?
Speaker 2:Yeah, or even a negative margin. You're like how is that possible? Yeah, and I think it's our duty to sort of continue to work with those donors about the relationship Because, as you said, even these universities the Harvards, the University of Texas, the Princes of the World that have these massive endowments, those alumni are still lining up to write checks.
Speaker 1:Which is kind of. I mean, harvard has about a $50 billion endowment yeah. It's like it's pretty insane, so yeah, so endowments are super important, donations are super important Large donations, small donations and we hope that it's something that gives meaning to people's lives when they do donate, that it makes them feel better.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what makes me. I mean to be honest with you. Asking people for money isn't the easiest thing in the world to do, but I go into it every time, reminding myself that what I'm actually doing is giving them an opportunity to feel good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, opportunity to feel good. And, frankly, if they felt like I was whipsawing them into writing a check or making a gift, I wouldn't feel bad. I'd feel bad about it, I wouldn't feel good about the outcome. And so I go into that sort of when I ask somebody if they would consider making sometimes really large, what we would consider to be sacrificial gifts that make them have to really think about where that money is going to come from in order to pay off that pledge. They're actually motivated to do it and they feel good about it.
Speaker 1:People could see the patients that they make a difference. You know that makes a huge difference in their lives. Sure, there's all kinds of people every year that we're able to help and that we, you know, may not be able to do otherwise. And it's, you know, fortunately for me I get to see that Right, and kind of unfortunately for the donors they don't get to see, you know, the faces, um, but it's, it's just the way it has to be. You know we have to have privacy, but I can tell you firsthand it makes a huge difference in the lives of your, you know, fellow um citizens.
Speaker 2:And I think, for on my side of the street, one of the things that we can do a better job of, I think, for the patients is really kind of connecting the dots for them with the donors that made it possible. I mean, you walk around the hospital and you see all kinds of plaques and signage and things like that that says you know this room, this thing you know generously donated by, this room, this thing generously donated by, but really, as you said, we can't always make those one-to-one personal connections where let somebody talk on the phone or actually know who meet the donors and things like that. But I think that it's a meaningful exercise for us to try and make those connections as resonant as possible so that you know one of your patients understands that it was donors that bought that linear accelerator or even just, you know, refurnish the infusion area, whatever it was. You know that things like that that go on, that we we, that we make those connections between the than the recipients and the donors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's, and obviously it's. You know, everybody works hard for their money and it's, it's, it's, it's hard to part with and and yeah, I would think it would be. I've never asked anybody for a donation. I think I have difficult conversations with people every day. I think it would be very difficult for me to do that and it's, it's not an easy thing to do, but for the hospital and for most hospitals to remain viable, it's an essential thing that we have.
Speaker 2:You have to, you've got to either have have a real separation there or be able to make a real pivot between. Look, I have to have a conversation with this person about their care plan and I've got to divorce that from the fact that I know that they're you know, so yeah, I, I can't.
Speaker 1:I have a hard time asking people for a review, even Right, because I never want them to think our relationship is transactional, because it's not Right. You know, I never know what anybody's insurance is. I don't care what it is. Yeah, you know, and I never want a patient to ever think that I was doing this for some other gain than just to try to cure their cancer.
Speaker 2:But on the other hand, I will tell you that if I had a donor that wasn't one of your patients, didn't have any immediate connection to you maybe there was an institutional donor or a corporation or something that I felt that they had a pretty strong connection to what we wanted to do in cancer I wouldn't hesitate to put you in that room.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, yeah, that would be easier if it was somebody I didn't treat for sure. That would be easier if it was somebody I didn't treat for sure and so what do you think the future holds for philanthropy in general?
Speaker 2:I wonder sometimes, because, on the one hand, I mean we've got a tax code that encourages this kind of, that, encourages generosity, that encourages philanthropy, but it's getting more and more sort of constrained and pinched, and so even things like, you know, increasing the standard deduction, yeah, okay, has this unintended consequence of creating a whole tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of non-itemizers now.
Speaker 2:And so people are like, well, if I'm not itemizing, then do I really care about charitable contributions? And with every sort of tax cut or deficit projection or things like that, there's always these rumblings that the tax code is going to change dramatically and that we're going to say goodbye to the charitable deduction, and I think that's a threat. I think that, realistically, though, I look at and say every four years, the number of people and the dollars that are poured into the political system for political contributions for which there are no charitable contributions, okay, and those people aren't necessarily. I mean they think they're getting access or whatever, but I mean they're pouring tens of millions of dark money into these black packs or whatever they call these things, you know, super packs.
Speaker 2:Super packs, yeah, and stuff like that, and that still happens in the absence of a tax deduction. So I think if the future philanthropy from a tax perspective um, I think it's still strong, I think it would just force us to change our messaging a little bit and but we'd still have to do the same job of of connecting donors with beneficiaries and what they wanted to do, and they wouldn't necessarily need a tax. I'm not even sure that donors, you know, are that motivated by the tax deduction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, it's kind of a nice benefit, but I think they're motivated to. You know, it's kind of transmuting their hard work into making a difference for people who are around them and it makes them feel like they've done something positive with their life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the other thing that you'll see happening and it may not happen directly with the tax code in terms of the deduction, but it could happen indirectly with the tax code in terms of saying so. I mean so right now in the IRS code you have, if you are religious, educational or charitable okay, those are kind of the big three terms for what qualifies you to be a nonprofit organization, a 501c3, you know, and so there's really nothing in the tax code. The words healthcare don't appear together in Section 501c3. That would say a hospital, like a university, a private university, is per se nonprofit, and so that's why nonprofit hospitals have to do community benefit reporting, and so this is how many millions of dollars we provide every year in uncompensated care. This is how many other programs we do in the communities that we don't get paid for, and so we have to earn our nonprofit status in the way that universities and churches don't.
Speaker 2:And I could actually see, and actually I could see the IRS code even being amended to sort of say healthcare doesn't count anymore, education doesn't count anymore. I mean even stuff. What's going on right now with taxing endowments, saying to these private universities that $100 billion, it's like the luxury tax in baseball or football. It's sort of like now you guys have to pay for having such large endowments in a way that wouldn't have been conscionable 20 years ago, 20 years ago. And so I could see, on the corporate side of things, the tax code changing to say you guys are no longer nonprofit organizations and so, yeah, the symphonies and the zoos and the cultural organizations, they're still providing this kind of benefit. We're going to let them stay as nonprofit organizations because they don't make enough money to threaten any of that. But hospitals and these big universities and stuff like that, you guys all lose your tax exemption.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and of course, this is all just. None of this has happened, right, and my guess would be it would happen to a university way before it would happen to a hospital.
Speaker 2:I think that's right.
Speaker 1:A lot of these universities are kind of in hedge funds with a college attached to it, that's it and so they kind of have become asymmetric.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah that we still maintain our connection with donors. That said, no, we still very much need your support because getting rid of the tax deduction isn't going to make CMS pay us any more for Medicare or Medicaid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, dan, thanks so much for your time. Oh this has been a real pleasure. Thank you for inviting me, yes, sir, and thank you for all the hard work that you and your team do through the Office of Development. It's a pleasure, and so if somebody wants to get a hold of St Luke's Philanthropy, they can go to the Office of Development's website. Exactly, you can type in Friends of St Luke's, and that will take you there as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you go to the St Luke's website, up in the upper right corner there's a little box that says I Want To. You click on I want to and that'll take you to make a gift or an internet, which will take you into the entire development apparatus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, as an experiment, um click on that and make a small donation and see if you feel a little bit better about yourself. There you go, thank you, thanks everybody.